Podcast: Taboo Tales Love, Sex, and Disability

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Transcript

Paige [Excerpt]: I was 23 or 24 at the time, and I was like, I need to do something so, with a little bit of wine behind me I applied and for some reason I got accepted.

And I will honestly say and I will stand by this, The Undateables gets a lot of misjudgment. I think the name throws a lot of people, but at the time, it was the only show that I can think of on telly that represented disabled people and started to normalise dating.

Beth: Hello and welcome to the disability download brought to you by pan disability charity Leonard Cheshire. On this podcast, we respond to current topics, share stories, and open up conversations about disability.

Zarifa sheds light on the unique challenges and triumphs she faces navigating conversations around sex, dating and disability online. Since this topic is so vast, we've also got Paige and Taylor, a couple who share their experiences of love and partnership, when one member of the relationship is disabled.

Paige, who was also on Channel 4's hit show the Undateables, offers us a glimpse into her journey of finding love amidst societal norms and expectations. So whether you're disabled in a relationship or simply curious about the intersection of love and disability, buckle up for an enlightening and heartwarming episode. Let's dive in.

Beth: Hi Zarifa! Thank you so much for coming on to the Disability Download. I just thought we'd start off with... if you could tell our audience a little bit about yourself.

Zarifa: Well, thank you for having me. My name is Zarifa Roberson. I'm a person of colour with a physical disability. I was born with Arthrogryposis Multiplex Congenita, you know, that's a lot. Imagine if you was drunk trying to say that, you would never get it.

So, one of my good friends at the time, someone came up to her and asked her what, what was my disability? She said,  well, she looked at them and she thought about it and said, she has a long disability. It's like supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. Don't ask me, ask her. So, I tell people I have Arthrogryposis, most people know about that. But the medical terminology is Arthrogryposis multiplex congenita.

Yeah. So I just tell people to say AMC.  I live alone. I have a Bachelor of Science degree from university. I have so many great qualities about myself. I drive a car currently. I was in a relationship with my former boyfriend Ali, but he unexpectedly passed away earlier in September, so, um, sexuality is what I do, is what I stand for. I just love it. It's, it's the untapped community that people with disabilities really don't get our fair representation in.

Especially when you're someone of colour. That is all about me right now. And I work. I have a full-time job, I work for the federal government, for the VA, and I have my side hustle doing MT on the side, working with children with disabilities.

Beth: Amazing, so you're really busy then, you must be a super busy person.

Zarifa: Yes, I'm always busy. And I just had my sessions last night, over here in the United States. We celebrate and highlight National Disability Employment Awareness Month in October. It was founded in congress since 1988, so it was recognised through congress and the purpose of this is to highlight disabled people that are in the workforce who work and contribute to our economy. We talk about the benefits and challenges of being employed in the workforce when it comes to people with disabilities.

So my platform, which is black and disabled, we highlighted black, disabled and educators last night and next week were going to be doing another series on what is black and disabled. We’re going to be focusing on being black and disabled in the social justice movement. So yeah, I’m really busy. But I’m not too busy to get up at five in the morning to do this interview! So I’m all here!  

Beth: Amazing! So, what got you into the sexuality field?

Zarifa: You know what, most of my topics come from lived experiences, sexuality versus disability. I don't know if you know the history of sexuality and the disability community, but once you become of age they used to sterilise people with disabilities over here in the US. They said: “Well OK, you have a disability, we don’t want you to procreate and make another one of you.”

Which is so ignorant. Because most people don’t realise, both of my parents are not disabled. They just happened to have a child with a disability. I'm like, OK, wow. This is the history and this is the context. This actually came out. I said, why don’t I educate people about sexuality and the disability community? Let's talk about sexuality. Let's talk about dating. And let's talk about masturbation. Let's talk about all the topics that are taboo and people just don't want to talk about, because disability and sexuality, is taboo. It’s like no, no, no, no. You're not supposed to talk about that. So, I said let's talk about that and let me be at the forefront of it.

Let's highlight black women's bodies with disability and lingerie. So that's why you see on my website, on my platform, on social media, the me in lingerie. I'd explain that to people because you don't see our bodies represented in media when it comes to black women with disability bodies.

They look at it seeing that it’s something wrong. Like we shouldn't be proud of our bodies and I have a tube in my body and I remember I was always insecure. I didn't really see my my stomach. Now I'm just like more empowered and it took me time to actually become empowered. And I'm looking at all those little girls with disabilities, behind me.  

And knowing that they have scars and they have operations scars, they have different procedures under them and they body don’t look like the girl on the on billboard that looks perfect and our bodies are not perfect. So I do that. It's a way of empowering our bodies.  

Beth: Yeah. It's all about representation. We should be able to see a wide mix of people because that's what the world is. What would you say is some of the common stigmas and stereotypes surrounding sexuality and disability? What would you say some of those are and how do you try to eliminate those through your work?

Zarifa: Oh gosh, there’s so many stigmas around sexuality. Oh my god, I remember this person asked me how do you have sex? Well, how do I have sex... Then I responded back to them. Well how do you have sex? And they were just like, oh okay. No different. So there's a lot of stigma around sexuality. I remember my mom and I, we got into this huge discussion. Well it basically her telling me not to have kids because I have a disability.

Or I'm unfit to be a mom, because I have a disability, or I cannot carry a baby because I have a disability. This is coming from my own mother. My own mother. And I'm just like, wow, you know, this is one of the things that sexuality leads to. Motherhood. So this all goes hand in hand. So I'm like, wow. It hurt my feelings at the time. I'm telling my boyfriend about it, I'm telling my friends about it.

And I actually compared myself to one of my close friends that has cerebral palsy. She has three little boys and her and her husband are married. They have 3 little boys and they do just fine. And I said, how about my friend so and so. And she's like, well, she's much younger than you. So she's capable of raising kids, being a mom and getting pregnant, all of that.

And it made me feel like, damn, you know, my own mom, you would expect to hear that from people outside of your family. With the person at birthed you. She tells you stuff like this, like, wow, you know, I told her that hurt my feelings and she apologised. But that will always be with me. You told me that I was incapable of being a mom or raising a child. Even carrying a baby. She never asked, have I talked to my GYN about carrying the baby? She never had any of those conversations with me.  

I had it (the conversation) with my GYN at the time, her name is Libby. She's no longer here. God bless her soul, rest in peace. And she just told me if you ever get pregnant, this was before COVID-19. So this is how progressive I was thinking back in back in. uh, well, I would say 2000. I said, you know, Libby I would like to have babies one day and I would like to get pregnant, is that possible, she said it's very possible. 

So this is something possible that I can actually see myself doing. But there are so many stigmas about people with disabilities when it comes to sexuality. People think well, because you have a disability, I'm supposed to date someone with a disability. And I'm just like, no. And I remember having this conversation with my Aunt Mildred. And I told my Aunt Mildred that I didn't want to date someone with a disability. She's like, why not? And she had a little attitude. I was like, because it's called preferences. And we all have preferences. Like there's white people who don't date black people. There's black people that don't date white people and the list goes on and on, but I feel like because I have a disability I should be grateful or just be like, Oh my God, someone wants me ,I'm desperate. I can't find a man because I have a disability. Whatever. That is so not the case. But that's how society has placed that stigma on our sexuality. We should just be okay with anyone.  

You know that means that someone is there to love you unconditionally. I have standards. I have preferences. I'm not gonna just date anyone just because they have a disability or just because we may be compatible signs. Like, I’m a Virgo. It doesn't mean that every compatible sign that I talk to is a connection, you know? So it's like that. So the list is so many, there's so many stereotypes. There’s so many out there.  

Beth: So, I know that you're a motivational speaker and an entrepreneur. Can you share some of your most proudest accomplishments, like some of the best things that you’ve done?

Zarifa: OK. Well, one of my proudest accomplishments and people really don't know this. Like I actually started, I initiated Disability Awareness Month in the state of Pennsylvania. Every March we put on our platform, discussions. Hopefully next month we'll put on something bigger, a little bit bigger virtually. In the disability community, just  celebrate our culture, our pride, our diversity within the disability community, because the disability community is full of diversity. Yeah. So that's one of my proudest moments highlighted.

One of the things I’m doing right now is, I'm gonna be taking more pictures of sexuality versus disability and I can't wait, I just can't wait until people see my new pictures and me showing my ass. And I remember my last photoshoot, people saw the pictures and I posted them on social media and everyone was like, wow, I didn't know you had an ass like that. You know, I'm just like, well thank ya!

Beth: What advice would you give to people with disabilities who may be struggling with issues related to their like, sexuality or intimate relationships like maybe they're trying to navigate the dating apps? What advice would you give?

Zarifa: As far as sexuality and disability, if they are trying to just break into it, just do it. You're gonna get all kinds of pushbacks. But the funny thing about it, in our community, the people that don't have any voice, have the biggest voices, for example the autism community, some people in that community are nonverbal, but they are the biggest voices because they are the biggest advocacy voices that are actually advocating for that community. 

Where I am a person with a disability. I don't have anyone that's advocating for my platform. Someone is always telling me to be quiet or shut up, or we don't want to hear from you, in this society, it doesn't matter who it is. Someone is always telling people to shut up. And I always thought about that. It's kind of unique. I said. The people that don't have a voice they have the biggest voice, but the people that have the voice, we don't have a voice. So I would tell people to keep strong follow your heart. Do what makes you happy. Follow your initiative. Follow your passion. If this is a passion that you have, it doesn't matter what people say, it could be your Mama. It could be your grandmama. They don't live in your shoes. They're not walking in your shoes.

So as far as dating...now, Ali who was my former boyfriend, he was very open to dating someone with a disability, but I'm very open when I tell people, when I'm dating online, just basically the first two conversations, I say I have a physical disability. I’m very open with them. I tell them what it (my disability is) is and I'll allow them to make the decision if they would like to actually decide to carry on.  If they don't want to carry on, that's on them. I don't really try to make it all; please please please please. No, I don't beg anyone to stay. If you're meant to say you will stay, if you're meant to leave, then bye bye!

Beth: I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you today and I think our listeners are going to love this episode. So, if people want to find you, where can they do look?

Zarifa: www.itsanidealworld.com, you can find me at Zarifa Roberson on Facebook, on Instagram all my social media. Twitter, which is now called X. All my social media. I'm even on TikTok now, snapchat, check me out. E-mail me at and I'm pretty, I'm very responsive. e-mail me. I will e-mail you back.zroberson@itsanidealworld.com

Beth: Hello Paige and Taylor, welcome to the disability download. So, shall we just start off with you telling us a little bit about yourselves?

Paige: My name is Paige. I'm 31 and I have cerebral palsy. I got diagnosed when I was about one, so I've always kind of been in an electric wheelchair, and that's just been my life really. And then I met you...

Taylor: I'm Taylor, I'm just able bodied, normal, regular. According to society.

Paige: We met online, actually, well personally, for me, I was at a time where I wasn't really looking for it. I'd been online dating for a while and I've been on the specific site for about six months to a year. I'd been on a few dates. They all went really well, but there just wasn't that romantic vibe. It was just kind of friends and just they were lovely. But it just wasn't...there was no kind of connection there.

And I just thought, you know what? I'm going to focus on myself because clearly something's not connecting and about three days later I saw Taylor and I never usually message people first, he's the only person in my entire life I've messaged first, so I sent him this weird message because I'm very awkward.

Taylor: You said I can't see your picture. It keeps going sideways on me, can you send me another one.

Paige: And clearly that was the winner and...

Taylor: It was a nice message.

Beth: Well it clearly worked didn't it!

Paige: Exactly, I just. I hate when people are like, hey! What are you doing? Or also I get a lot of the time, like really inappropriate stuff as a first message. So I kind of just wanted to kind of try and be funny, but I came across like a little bit of a weird psychopath. 

But that's fine if you do have a disability from, in my experience anyway, it opens up, like people forget their filter a little bit and like I personally got so many weird messages and if I speak to my able bodied friends, the ratio between being disabled, it's like it's like something societally like people think it's just OK because you're disabled because you're different to be like, open with really strong sexual or really like inappropriate lines. It's a lot sometimes.

Beth: So how long have you guys been together then?

Taylor: Three and a half years.

Paige: Did you hear the despondency in his voice when he said that?

Beth: I love how you like you made him answer though.

Paige: As you can probably tell, I'm the one in the relationship that's more kind of about going and I will talk a lot, but I think that compliments us quite well. Yeah, we're very different people. Like, fundamentally we're very different, but our morals are the same, but everything else is the same. I've never been more opposite to someone in my entire life. I think it pushes him out of his comfort zone. It calms me down a bit.

Beth: Yes, I get that. So, Paige, you participated in the show Undateables. Could you just tell me a little bit about your experience on the show and did it influence your approach to dating?

Paige: Massively. I'd never dated before the show ever, and I applied one night under maybe slight influence of alcohol, because I just got to the point where  I just wanted to change. I just become really stagnant in my life and dating. I was 23 or 24 at the time at the time. I was like, I need to do something. So with a little bit of wine behind me, I applied and for some reason I got accepted and I will honestly say, and I will stand by this, the Undateables gets a lot of misjudgment.

I think the name throws a lot of people off. But at the time it was the only show that I can think of on telly that represented disabled people and started to normalise dating, and for me the experience with them was genuinely brilliant from the producers, the camera, people, just everybody, we had a mental health support. It was just a really nice experience.

Unfortunately, I didn't find love. Well, maybe not, unfortunately, because I have now, but I didn't find love on the show. But it gave me that confidence to realise that I was dateable because before I genuinely believed I wasn't because any of my experiences prior were just awful. And if you watch my episode.  

The date is the most awkward thing you’ve ever seen in your life. I watch back and I can literally feel my tummy like clenched because I'm cringing. But it gave me confidence enough to get one date under my belt, so I was like, OK, I can do this now, but yeah, it gave me the confidence to get that first day under my belt and just kind of go for it. Nothing terrible happened. He wasn't rude. He didn't judge my disability. We weren't attracted to each other necessarily, but it was a really positive experience overall.  

Beth: Yeah, I guess it's like you just said it gave you the confidence because and I think it's like dating anyway, dating is really nerve wracking, like it is hard.

Paige: Dating's hard! Regardless of disability. Dating is hard!

Beth: It is really hard and I guess sometimes...It's one of them things like once you've got one down, you know that you you can do it and stuff like that. So I'm glad you had a really good experience.

Paige: Yeah, it was a really good experience. Like I said, I think it's so misjudged and I do understand why, but I think it paved the way for, you know, you've got the shows now like love on the spectrum now. And there's one for people with Down syndrome. And it's just about seeing people in the media with a disability dating and making that entirely normal. Just as two abled bodied people do it.

Beth: Exactly. So, Taylor, what drew you to Paige? And how did you navigate any potential challenges or misconceptions in the relationship

Taylor: Obviously you know the opening line was spot on...but no, it's just she was bubbly, kind, caring, outgoing.

Paige: Persistent.  

Taylor: It was just her personality. And honestly, when she said Oh you know, I've got cerebral palsy...

Paige: I know you researched a little bit because I have a few different conditions.

Taylor: Because I didn't know anything about cerebral palsy, it’s never been in my life before with anyone. So yeah, I did a bit of research and was like OK, your legs don't work. So what? What's the difference? You’ve just got to use your chair,  I'll use my legs. Whatever. 

Yeah, because I didn't see any challenges on this perceptions,  because I when I was in school, there were kids who were disabled, not in the same way as Paige, but my Nan was quite disabled as well. My mum has multiple sclerosis. So, disability was always there, it’s just in my life. 

Paige: What drew me to you and what I always say is you are the most open-minded person. Like Taylor won't look at a person and see like anything. He won't see the weight, he won't see the disability. You are literally the most unbiased human I've ever met in my entire life and that's one of the things that drew me to you.

Taylor: I was just brought up. If you respect me, I respect you. You know it's mutual.

Beth: So, Paige, 7 out of 10 people with disabilities feel excluded from the dating world...

Paige: That is crazy to me.

Beth: Yeah, it is, isn't it? Can you share some of the challenges that you've faced and how you overcame them? 

Paige: Yeah, I mean, like I said to your previous question, dating for me has been a minefield. Again, I don't think that's disability related. I think that's just a thing for everyone. In terms of my personal experiences, for most of my life was really hesitant to put my disability out there when dating. Like if you look back at all my old profiles, it's all like headshots from like kind of my chest upward. You've never seen my chair. 

There'd be ones where I was like standing against a rail or just my chair wouldn't be involved because whenever I did put my wheelchair in in the very few times I did, I noticed a change. Either the lack of messages or the type of messages I would get. I actually did a video on my YouTube channel, where I did two profiles between one showing my wheelchair and one not, and the messages and the content was so different in each. So, for me my biggest challenge was kind of overcoming that misconception, as you said earlier.  

There's one date that particularly stood out to me. I had just started dating online. I was probably about 17 or 18, and I was speaking to this guy for quite a while. Like maybe like a few months. And we got on really well and we decided to meet for coffee.  At this point I hadn't brought up my disability. I just hadn't. Maybe I was scared. Maybe I was making excuses for, like, not the right time, but I just didn't bring up and it came to the day before the date. And I'm like, well, I kinda gotta tell him because I'm gonna rock up in this big  arse wheelchair. I can't hide it. And so, I told him and instantly he was like, well, why would I go on date with you then? 

After like a couple of months of talking and that really knocked my confidence and really upset me because it was the first time I was like consciously, oh God, this is a thing I'm being judged for. And that was really hard and that knocked my confidence. And then to get my confidence built back up was difficult because I just assumed that everybody was then going to judge me on it and it was only until the undateables, as I said before, did I get the confidence to kind of really put myself out there again.

In my dating life when I realised that when shit got real, when my disability got real, when the awkward parts of you know, I have quite bad spasms due to my cerebral palsy and I'm in agonising pain. When they saw stuff like that, when they saw, you know, we can't necessarily just jump in a car and go anywhere in the world. We need to plan stuff. When that became an issue, that's when they bailed, when it was kind of superficial. “Ohh, you're just in a wheelchair. It's fine.” But when the intricacies of my disability came into it, most people can't deal with that. They’re like, I'm gone like I'm out. And again that was really hard.  

Beth: I've seen the term in interabled thrown about quite a bit in social media and in articles to describe couples. Maybe one has a disability and the other doesn't. What do you both think about this term? Do you think it's accurate? Do you think it's needed?  

Taylor: I get this like, the need for labels for things. But I don't understand why it has to be almost highlighted. Were just a couple. That's it. It doesn't matter if one of us is able bodied and one of us isn't, we're just a couple. 

Paige: Be honest, you hate it. 

Taylor: Yeah, I don't see the need for it. I don't. I just find it infuriating because as soon as you say that, people assume a couple of things. That I either have a disability fetish. We're not a couple at all. I'm just your carer. I am a brother. I've been called her uncle before.

Paige: That's my favourite. Yeah, my neighbour was like oh, your uncle visits a lot. I'm like...

Taylor: People assume anything other than the fact that we're a couple. So, there was a particular instance, we went out to Costa. We were literally just getting a coffee. We’d just been shopping. So, we're just grabbing a coffee. And we sat down and this woman just kept staring at us.

Paige: Like not glancing, staring. She was like literally like this. I was like, I could feel her eyes in the back of my head.

Taylor: And she was like, and it was also like, no, they can't be a couple. Don't be so stupid.

Paige: I got really uncomfortable. I was like, we need to leave. This is, I don’t like this.

Taylor: And it just got to a point where I just got up and I just, kissed her to make a point. And she just, like...

Paige: The womans face was like...

Taylor: One, there was no need to stare. And two, why does it bother you so much? It's just like, if it was two able bodied people she wouldn't be staring. 

Paige: We just looked particularly sexy that day. Like you said, you don't know what someone's thinking, but I from my experience, not all the time, but I think we have a human curiosity for things that are different and you don't often see. For me in the community, there's always been assumption that disabled people have to date other disabled people and that's cool. And I'm going to  sound like a right hypocrite here. And I say this to Taylor and I always feel like a bad person. I've never wanted to date another disabled person long term. 

Which is so weird for me to say because I'm expecting someone to love me for me, but for me it just wasn't someone that I felt worked in my previous relationships and it's different to what a lot of people say. And I think the point you made about the label going back to your question that does then open up for those sort of prejudice. And personally for me like as much as I'm going to agree and say I hate it, you'll go on my social media and you'll notice that I do tag that in our pictures and in our videos and stuff. 

And it's not because that's how I want to label us, but I unfortunately that's how we are labelled and on the  point of me posting online and posting videos of our relationship is to normalise and educate. So I want people, who may not understand interable, as much as I hate that term, to find those videos and see, as Taylor said, we are just a normal couple.

Beth: How can society contribute to making dating more inclusive for people with disabilities?

Taylor: Honestly, I think people are very self-centered nowadays. And they don't want to open their minds up to anything other than their wants, their needs and stuff like that. So unless people change, I don't think anything's going to change unless people are willing to learn and open their minds and see beyond the surface and the fact that it's just wheels instead of legs, I don't think anything will change.

Paige: But, that said, I don't want people to... And I do agree with you actually. But like, I also don't want people to be despondent at what Taylor said because, that doesn't mean there aren't people out there like that, and it doesn't mean there aren't, aren't people...Like, if someone's listening to this podcast now, it's like, well, fucking great, I’m never going to find anyone. I don't want them to be like, oh, well, you know, that's awful. That means I'm gonna find anyone because I do think also exposure to disability and dating is super important and also super important that you don't, we're talking about an interracial relationship. 

It just so happens that Taylor is able bodied. There are successful couples who both have disabilities as well and I think that's important to note because I actually think a disabled on disabled... How would you word that? Two disabled people together is actually more marginalised in society than able bodied and disabled, because a lot of my friends who have that they're told they can't have kids. Taylor can look after the kid, but how could two disabled people do that, you know what I mean?

So I  really think exposure to different types of couples involving disability is really important and again, education. If you don't understand then that's fine. But maybe to educate yourself a little bit and it's also OK not to want to date someone in a wheelchair. I think this is really important. As much as you know, I truly believe, everybody with a disability has the ability to find love regardless of what the disability is and find the right person. It's also got to be said that some people just don't want to date people with disabilities, and that's fine. Just like I'm not necessarily attracted to, I don't know, as attracted to no offence, people with blonde hair, personally for me, that's just not, I'm not as attracted to someone with blonde hair as dark hair. So that's fine. So, someone doesn't have to date someone in a wheelchair. But I do think it's important to include them in conversations. And also include, in not just dating, one of the biggest taboos kind of linked to that is sex and intimacy.

It's why I started my YouTube channel because I've had especially at university when you know, everyone gets a bit randy at uni. I always had, you can't do that and I'm like, why can't I do that and that baffles me. Thats the biggest taboo I can’t understand. Because as you said previously, we all just human beings, we all  have desires. And just because our legs don't work doesn't mean other parts of our body aren't working.

Beth: Just to ask a little bit more about that, because that's interesting, like have you, do you get that a lot, like have you had it said to you a lot? Because I’ve heard this speaking to other people as well, that people just assume like oh, that's not for you. That area isn't for you. Have you had a lot of that in your time?

Paige: Yeah. I mean, I think as a couple, I think people aren't very much like going to come up to and be like, can you bang? But individually I get it a lot, when it going back to the comments on like dating apps and stuff 9 out of 10 times it was like, can you have sex or like how do you have sex? And I'm like what? You wouldn't go up to someone in the street and ask them that. Why are you asking me this? But yeah, I get it a lot. I get it. I'm very open when talking about sex and different types of sex and different ways and stuff like that, and it shocks people a little bit. 

I'm also bisexual and that shocks people a bit as well because they're like, wait, wait, wait, you're disabled and your sexuality isn't straight. Like, that's weird. Yeah. I get it on comments on videos and just like almost like I shouldn't have that desire, that it's not OK, but as I said before, there are so many people with disabilities who are successful parents and I probably bet you most of them have had sex to have a child. So you know what I mean? Like it's baffling to me. I think that also comes down to the idea that disabled people are a lot younger than they actually are. I'm 31 and I get treated like a child quite a lot. So it's the idea of bless, you couldn't want that. Like, that's a grown up thing for you.

It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I'm still convinced some people who haven't thought that we've had sex in nearly four years, Which is mental to me. We haven't. No, we have. We have. 

Beth: Well, thanks so much, Paige and Taylor. You've given us so much food for thought, and yeah, it's been a really, really interesting discussion today. So, yeah, thanks a lot for being on the disability download.

So again, I just want to say a huge thank you to Zarfia, Paige and Taylor for giving us a little glimpse into their lives and for speaking about the taboo subjects of sex, relationships and dating. We'd love to know what you think. 

Get in touch by emailing us at disabilitydownload@leonardcheshire.org or contacting us on Twitter or Instagram @ Leonard Cheshire. If there's a guess you really want to hear, reach out and let us know. And don't forget to like, share and subscribe to the podcast. Thanks for listening. I'm Beth. And this has been the disability download.