The Ramp of Approval with Isobel Williams

Isobel Williams: A big motivation for me – when I sort of decided to branch out and start my own company – was, I guess, my journey with disability… and the need for representation, and it sort of does all tie in together

Isaac Corrick: Hello and welcome to the Disability Download, brought to you by Leonard Cheshire. This month, Nick caught up with music publicist Isobel Williams to talk about disabled representation in the music industry , and Isobel's Tik Tok series, Ramp of Approval. Here's Nick. 

Nick Bishop: So I'm here with music PR guru and access campaigner Isobel Williams. Isobel – welcome to The Disability Download. Thanks for joining us.

Isobel Williams: Hi, Nick! Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Nick: Tell us a bit more about you. And tell us about your job and what you do day-to-day. 

Isobel: Yeah. So I am a publicist working in music, and I've been working in music for nearly 10 years now – which is a very long time – but I absolutely love it. I launched my own PR company earlier this year called Laydown PR. So it's still very early days. But I'm really enjoying it! And a big motivation for me – when I sort of decided to branch out and start my own company – was, I guess, my journey with disability… and the need for representation, and it sort of does all tie in together. So I'm also an ambulatory wheelchair user… which is a word I've tried to say correctly! So I hope that I have because I only ever see it written down. I never hear people say it! But yeah. That's definitely fuelled and motivated the path that I'm currently on… which is one of wanting to contribute to disabled representation and contribute to a more accessible world.

Nick: Fantastic. Your job sounds brilliant. So, you mentioned that you have a disability yourself. And you've been keen to share more about your condition so that it's better understood. Can you tell us a bit more about it?

Isobel: Ah. Yes. Absolutely. So I, er, live with a condition called POTS, which stands for Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome. And I became unwell for the first time in 1998, which is a very long time ago. And I didn't get my POTS diagnosis until 2016. So one of the big reasons why I'm very sort of motivated to educate people about POTS is because it's so hard to get diagnosed with. But it's very easy to diagnose, so it seems like a really achievable thing to pump energy into! To tell you sort of a little bit more about POTS…. So POTS is a condition that affects the autonomic system. And the autonomic system is the sort of nervous system that controls all the things your body should do automatically. So, for example, heart rate, blood pressure, temperature control, digestion. All these things that should be sort of working in the background ,when you have POTS, they often or are frequently or constantly malfunctioning. The ‘P’ – that stands for ’Postural’. That sort of represents the fact that for a lot of people with POTS, the symptoms are triggered when you stand. So for me personally, I can stand for about a minute. But during that time, my heart rate will go faster and faster and my blood pressure will go lower and lower. So if I was to continue to stand, I would eventually pass out. And the fact that all this stuff is going on in the background and malfunctioning means that I live with many, many horrible symptoms… such as fatigue, dizziness, tachycardia, headaches, migraines, all sorts of things. So it's not a life- threatening condition, but it's very much a life-altering condition. And I would say it's heavily dominated every choice I've ever made in my life. And sort of everything that I have in place now has all been sort of dictated by my illness. It's like definitely engulfed my whole life…. but not necessarily always in a bad way… but it definitely has been in the driver's seat.

Nick: That leads me on very nicely to the Ramp of Approval, which is a brilliant video series that that you've launched. Can you tell me a bit more about that?

Isobel: Yeah. Absolutely. And thank you for your kind words about the Ramp of Approval. So yeah. It's… I guess it's like… It's a TikTok series. So I've been using a wheelchair for the last four or so years. And initially I found it really difficult and it was such an adjustment – not just in terms of accessibility but in the way that I found I was treated and [in] how people saw me. And I benefited so much from following disabled content creators –  seeing other people, navigating illnesses like mine, online… and sort of calling out things that weren't right. It allowed me to be able to reflect and see that it's not my fault. I could identify then the issues and ableism that I maybe wasn't aware of. And because I've benefited so much from consuming other disabled people's content, now, I felt… or… when I started making them [the videos], I felt like I was at a point where I sort of wanted to pay it forward. So even though, you know, starting to post on TikTok in your mid-30s does not feel like a natural choice, yeah, I just decided to go for it! And I came up with the concept of the Ramp of Approval. I can't really remember how. But yeah. I just started reviewing places that I was going to and, you know, either awarding the ramp approval or not awarding the ramp of approval. And it's been really fun. And I think it's… I've had some really nice feedback from mostly people I know. Just that their eyes have really been opened by, you know, seeing the accessibility laid out in that way. 

Isobel: Because I think disabled people, of course, are so in the know about the lack of accessibility and they’re, you know, already fighting the same battle. But I think sometimes people that don't know someone or isn't disabled themselves or [doesn’t] have access into that world, you know, they don't think about it. So I think it's really eye opening for people. But it's hard. I think it's always going to be hard to make people that aren't disabled care. And that's something I just want to try and do. And I know there's loads of disabled people trying to do the same, which is really amazing. And so it's just…. I guess I've wanted to do this [the Ramp of Approval video series] to contribute to the all-hands-on-deck kind of approach 

Nick: Well, I think… I think you do a really good job of it. And by injecting a really good dose of humour as well, and it leads people into it. And you said that… You mentioned that you're worried that not every non-disabled person might take notice. I think humour is a really good way, of drawing people in. So well done for making it so, so entertaining! Um. You mentioned as well, not just access barriers, but attitudinal barriers that you … encountered early on as a disabled person, and ableism. Can… can you expand more on that?

Isobel: Yeah. Definitely. I think initially – when I started going out and about using a wheelchair and my… my times of going out and about on foot, in a more typical way, was still sort of fresh in my mind – I really, really felt a difference. It's just little things like, um… previously, before I used a wheelchair: if I was getting hassled in a pub by a weirdo or someone had come up to me in the street and, you know, was perhaps overstaying their welcome in terms of conversation, someone would usually come to the rescue. Someone would say, like: “Oh. Are you OK?” I'm aware that some people, you know, don't get that. And I'm a white, female-presenting woman. So I have to acknowledge that that's a privilege. But it's highlighted how people see disabled people because I don't get that any more. I think if I'm getting hassled in the street by someone, people don't sort of look to want to help… which is eye-opening. And I think it's interesting that … I don't know… I think I've noticed how people care a lot less about upsetting a disabled person… or [are] not… not accommodating? I think people often don't care. And I think that is because for a lot of people, they see disabled people as a different species to them so they can't relate. And I think because of that they just care a lot less. I'm naturally, I think, a people pleaser. And so when I review somewhere and it has bad accessibility and I'm ultimately saying something negative, I feel really bad for doing that. But then I have to tell myself “Well… they don't… one: they obviously don't feel bad because they don't need to be inaccessible in this way; it's probably a choice or an oversight. But also, they obviously don't care that I'm going to be bothered by it or they would have had provided a better service in the first place. But I still feel like: “Oh. I don't want to say anything bad”. But yeah. I try to push myself a little bit out of that zone because, you know, I don't owe them anything.

Nick: No. And so how do you find that that places react then when you tell them [your feedback?] When do you tell them, actually? Do you often tell them during the time you're reviewing, or is it just afterwards that they can find out in the video?

Isobel: So a combination. I like to give people the opportunity if something is bad to sort of just tweak or change things. Generally speaking it's little things, like perhaps somewhere hasn't listed their access. They haven't made the information available about their accessibility. That is something that I encounter very frequently. And it's such a tiny, tiny thing. And when you know a pub or a restaurant or a venue is listing, you know, ‘in their frequently asked questions, ‘can I wear trainers?’ They don't list, you know, ‘can we even bloody get in there?!’ I find that so frustrating. But when I flag that: places, I would say, 8 out of 10 times, they probably are happy to add the information. I think quite often a barrier is they're worried about saying the wrong thing. So on a number of occasions I've said, like, “I'm more than happy to advise if you're unsure about the language to use.” And obviously I do use the disclaimer that I … I'm not qualified. But I can, I guess, just give them a bit of a confidence boost because it is common sense at the end of the day. You know. Just put the information there and then disabled people can decide for themselves if it's going to work.

Nick: Yeah.

Isobel: I think an issue is as well that somewhere [a venue] might say it's accessible, but different people have a different definition of accessible. For a lot of people accessible means there's not stairs. But [some people may think by mistake] it might not necessarily mean that there's a ground floor bathroom –  in which case… you know… it isn't accessible. So I think that's something that I encounter, but I do think people are willing to update things and are open to input. But it does seem – just from my experiences, you know, out there on the mean streets! – it does seem like people are just concerned that they're gonna say the wrong thing. And so it feels safer to say nothing… when in actual fact, you know, they do kind of owe us just the facts so that we can use our time in the way that we want to. And not have to end up, you know, going door to door to venues, trying to find an accessible bathroom because we're rummaging around in the dark looking for access information.

Nick: Absolutely. And so in terms of the physical access barriers that you encounter, what might those be?

Isobel: So. Yeah. I suppose steps. Quite often, I think, not having a ground floor bathroom is a big issue for a lot of places. I think in London it's really hard because there's a lot of old buildings. And I think they can't perhaps tailor their buildings or make changes. And again, that's why it's just important to have your information out there so that people can decide what works for them. I find, working in music, a lot of these smaller live music venues aren't accessible. There's a lot of venues in basements… you know. Upstairs above pubs and things like that. I would say that is a big issue that I encounter frequently, especially with the kind of grass roots venues. I would say probably 70% of them aren't wheelchair accessible. So obviously that's an issue. And yeah… I guess it is just the sort of standard access things. And then I I do find as well… quite often if places are on paper accessible, it's still not particularly, like, user-friendly. So sometimes it can feel like a venue has done a bit of a tick box exercise… which is better than nothing, obviously. You know. We'll take what we can get. But they haven't perhaps thought about how it might feel or considered that actually disabled people want to have a nice time as well as everyone else, rather than just like getting in there and having a rubbish view. And you know, yes, there's an accessible bathroom, but you have to have to ask a security guard to take you down to the bathroom. You know, they don't think that actually maybe we wouldn't want that or maybe we want the freedom. I think we don't have true access until you can go out as a wheelchair user and have [at least the option] to rush to the toilet to be sick cos you've done too many shots! Like.. that isn't something a disabled person can do… if you've got to go to the bar, ask for the bouncer. Or asked to be taken somewhere or led round the back to a, you know, another door.

Nick: Yeah.

Isobel: We want the freedom to do that. Yeah,.

Nick: What makes a place stand out as particularly good for wheelchair users in your experience?

Isobel: I think if you look at the website of somewhere before you go there and it explains clearly that access, I think you're already on to a winner. I think that's so good. I have had some really good experiences. And obviously I try not to only speak about the negative sides of, you know, access because some places really do provide a great service. 

Nick: And in terms of features, do you breathe a sigh of relief when you finally see a properly large, accessible bathroom with all the facilities in the right place?

Isobel: Yeah. That's so great. That is the jackpot really. I think as well…. So I can stand for short periods. If a venue has a ground floor bathroom, I can make that work but it's not my preferred choice because As someone in a wheelchair, if I stand up to go and use the bathroom, people do tend to stare. And that isn't my issue. But it's just an extra thing to think about. 

Nick: Yeah.

Isobel: I also don't want to leave my wheelchair just because I'm always…. I mean, I'd hope no one would steal it but you, you know you can't. You can't really be too careful these days. 

Nick: No.

Isobel: So yeah, I think if someone's if somewhere has. step free access and a accessible bathroom that is just so great and I love it when you almost don't expect it. And then somewhere really surprises you. That's really a great feeling.

Nick: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. In your latest video, you're very helpfully sorted out the alarm for a particular venue. And can you just explain the bugbear that disabled people like us often get with alarms and accessible bathrooms?

Isobel: Yeah. So there's usually sort of a red emergency pull cord in a accessible bathroom. So if you take a tumble or you need help, you can pull it and you know that the help will come to you. So it's a really important and essential safety feature. But very, very often people tie up these cords to like, you know, get them out of the way – which is so counterproductive and, like, totally defeats the point of having one. It's just so ridiculous that that's the thing that people do, and that, you know, we're faced with. So I always make a point of untangling it. Or there's been times where if they're very, very short, I will mention it and I'll just say: “You know what's going on here?” It's quite rare that somebody, if they take a tumble, also happens to have arms that are two metres long, to be able to pull such a short cord. So, yeah. It's ridiculous.

 

Nick: Yes. And is there anything else that has shocked or surprised you in terms of good or bad accessibility?

Isobel: I would say I'm frequently shocked at – and maybe this isn't so much accessibility, but it's something that I'm frequently shocked by – it’s how free people feel to ask why I'm in a wheelchair. I have a general rule that if someone hasn't asked my name, they shouldn’t ask why I'm in a wheelchair. So, you know, it comes up naturally in conversation: if you want to invest five minutes in a general back and forth, you know just two normal people having a conversation, it will probably come up and I'm happy to acknowledge the natural curiosity. I'm not trying to keep that in. I'm in a position where I'm comfortable to talk about my situation and so I'm not looking to hold that back. So if they just take a little bit of time to chat, I will. I will give up the goods!

Nick: Yeah.

Isobel: But yeah. Literally a couple of weeks ago I was in Tesco and

Cashier:. “Have you got a Tesco card?”

Isobel: “Yes, I have. Here you go.”

Cashier: “Were you in an accident 

Isobel: And it's like… “what? How is that a natural interaction?” So you want me to just display my… what could potentially be the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to me? It just seems like madness that people think that that is appropriate and it happens all the time. 

Nick: Oh dear.

Isobel: Same as people grabbing my wheelchair and manoeuvring me without asking. I guess that is almost the same as someone picking someone up and moving them. That's exactly how it feels and that happens all the time. So I think that's always shocking. But it is just…. I believe the issue is lack of representation. People are unfamiliar with disabled people because they don't see them in sort of mainstream media enough, and so they have… You know, I guess. it’s… it's made it seem as though there's a different species and people just forget all their social etiquette around disabled people. So yeah. But it does make for some funny stories.

Nick: It does indeed. I can relate to a lot of what you're saying as a fellow disabled person and fellow wheelchair user. It's been a really enjoyable catch so far Isobel. Before we take a break …. you're going to tell me about one of the one of the artists that you're working with at Laydown PR. Elle Chante, I believe her name is. A UK disabled artist that you've got on your roster and it sounds really exciting. Could you tell me a bit more about Elle?

Isobel: Yes, absolutely. So I'm really excited to be working with Elle. When I launched Laydown PR I invited disabled and neurodivergent artists to sort of apply for a free press campaign, which is something I wanted to do in line with my launch. Just to sort of really hammer home my ethos that I really want to break down barriers within the music industry. And, I mean, for a non-disabled artist at the best of times, there are barriers there. It's really difficult to sort of get yourself out there as an emerging artist. But I guess I have a… an inside look into the additional barriers that disabled people are faced with. So when I started Laydown, I thought that's something that I'd really like to do… and I would really love to work with more disabled artists. So when I sort of put out the call, the standard was really, really high and it was so hard to select just one artist. But I selected Elle. So we're going to be working together in the New Year. She's gearing up to release some really, really incredible new music. And I'm very excited to just, you know, get stuck into the campaign. She's based in Birmingham and her sound is like…. it's very atmospheric. I think the experiences that someone has as a disabled person, if you can creatively like pump that into your music, you know… The potential is… The sky's the limit for the potential because what incredible insights into life. And the different outlooks that you may find yourself having, I think is so cool. And if you can then you know, put that into your music, I think it makes for something that's… yeah…really special. So yeah. I can't wait to get started. So watch this space for the new stuff!

Nick: Brilliant. And I think we've got an existing track from… from Elle at the moment. So… let's have a listen to that. 

Nick: That was a great track from Elle. Thank you for telling me all about her. Can't wait to see more of what she does! So… you mentioned earlier the kind of interaction that you get on social media with other disabled people. Can you tell me a bit more about that? And what and what they've said in reaction to the Ramp of Approval? Because it seems to me, you can't fail to be… impressed by it, really. And to be drawn… drawn into it, and relate to it, whether you're… whether you're disabled or not.

Isobel: Well. Thank you again for your kind words on the Ramp of Approval, Nick. It's much appreciated. I think… Yeah. The response has been really, really nice. I think there's been a lot of people that have, yeah, definitely been able to relate to the issues that I've encountered. And it's really great that people will comment. And share their… like, sort of…. similar experiences. I really, really love to see that. I think it feels like… When I put out a video addressing an issue, it feels like … such… the tiniest little tip of the iceberg. And you just know that there's like things much worse and bigger. And you know, there's just so much more sort of out there that isn't quite right. But it's been really lovely to be able to sort of tap into the disabled community – and, you know, yeah, follow other people – and I think that's been really, really good and really beneficial. And I hope that in the same way that I benefited from seeing people like me – people going through similar things with their health –as much as I benefited from seeing them, I hope that, you know, the next generation of people can benefit from seeing me. And then maybe they'll want to pay it forward, and start making their videos and stuff.

Nick: Absolutely.

Isobel: Yeah. So yeah, it feels really good. I really do love it when people comment and they relate or say they like the video.

Nick: Yes. And you mentioned earlier about the responses you get … from venues. Have they responded to your videos as well?

Isobel: Yeah, they have done. Generally I would say people are really happy when I share the positive experiences about the access. Yes, I think that's been really good. And it's also been great when they've come to me and said like: What can we do better? The times in which I feel like I've been transparent about, perhaps not a great experience, I haven't really received much backlash even though I'm always worried that I will. And I think that I remind myself that actually, …. people aren't really that, like… people don't really tend to feel too guilty about letting disabled people down. That is how it can feel. I don't think that that's always the case, but it's definitely how it feels some of the time. There was an incident that I experienced in Soho. I wanted to go into a restaurant with my friend and we asked if they had a ramp. And they just said: “No. We don't cater to disabled people.” And I felt really bad, sort of flagging that. So I did it sort of sheepishly at the end of another video. I just like mentioned about it. But then also they obviously you know. I think they obviously don't care about upsetting the disabled community or they wouldn't say that sort of thing. So I have to remind myself of that, like, you know, I'm just saying exactly what happened. It's not really for me to feel bad about. It's hopefully just going to implement change or just things will remain exactly the same.

Nick: But people will know about it and… and 

Isobel: Yeah. Exactly.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Well. Well done. Well done for flagging it. It's very important. And so yeah. That… that's… it's… It's been really good. Thanks, Isobel! And I would really encourage everyone to check out Ramp of Approval. They're really… The videos are really fun, really humorous and…. and you learn a lot as well. How can people? How can people find you on social media? How can people find Ramp of Approval, first of all? And then how do they find Laydown PR?

Isobel: So Ramp of Approval, you can find it on TikTok. And the handle is…. it's actually not that it's not that catchy or easy to remember, but it's @is0bellywelly. 

Nick: It sounds good. 

Isobel: Yeah, it does. I wanted it to match my Instagram. I couldn't get it to match, so I I've had to change the O in is0bellywelly to a 0. But I wonder if you put “the ramp of approval” in [the search bar], maybe just the algorithm will do its thing.

Nick: It… Yes, it does. And, and it's all…. We'll put it in the show notes. 

Isobel: Oh. Great. OK.

Nick:. And Laydown PR. How do people get onto that?

Isobel: That's much easier. It's laydownpr.com. And on Instagram, it's @LaydownPR. You know, I don't want to say that that's why I named it Laydown PR… But it did definitely contribute to the name choice the fact that I was able to get the.com. And the Laydown PR handle on everything. So yeah. I feel really smug about that actually!

Nick: Well, it's a great name. Can you explain a bit more for anyone who hasn't guessed why it's such a good name for someone with your condition?

Isobel: Yeah, definitely. So the way in which I've been working – over the… particularly the last couple of years as my condition hasn't been great – is… I do work, I would say like 80% or 90% lying down. So it made sense to call it Laydown PR. And I'm sure not many people will assume I've called it that because I'm running it lying down. But the reality is: I'm running it lying down!

Nick: Excellent. Good on you. And what's coming up for you in the future and what have you got to look forward to?

Isobel: What's coming up in the future? Great question. I think if we were to sort of say: “what's the five-year plan here? What I would love to do is – you know, without putting too much pressure on myself – I would love to grow the Ramp of Approval and continue to build it. And if I could then, you know, build a bit of a platform and if it did generate sort of revenue – if we were getting enough views and things like – I would love to reinvest any money I make through Ramp of Approval into sort of funding the PR for disabled artists. That is like my, you know, my end goal. If I could create a sort of Ramp of Approval fund. And… and then invest that into just, you know…. giving opportunities to disabled artists to mean that the music industry has more representation. And people's favourite pop stars might not only be their favourite pop stars, but also offer disabled representation. That is what I would absolutely love. That you know, that could be a million years off. That… That's the that's the ultimate goal. Almost, you know, fantasy football level.

Nick: No… It's… Well, as someone that loves Fantasy Football, …. I'd say it's more realistic than that! And more… more achievable than even I, as a football nerd, will ever get to any success on Fantasy Football. So yeah. I think that's a great goal to have. And I really hope you get there. And some nice synergy between both of your passions, there.

Nick: What else? What else do you like doing in in your leisure time? When you… when you get a bit of chill time.

Isobel: I love… I love a good old fashioned socialise. I love a little cheeky beer with friends. I really do love to socialise. I also get a lot of pleasure from watching sort of trashy TV and I love listening to a good podcast. Actually, at the moment, I'm really enjoying the killer combination of playing Stardew Valley and listening to a podcast or audiobook. That for me is pure relaxation. But yeah. I think… I would love to list off some more meaningful hobbies, but I think that is the reality.

Nick: What’s Stardew Valley? For the uninitiated, like me.

Isobel: So Stardew Valley is a game available on Nintendo Switch. And you can… Basically, if you think of… sort of… kind of…. I guess the Sims. Sim City, that sort of thing, but you're building a farm?

Nick: OK. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you now. Yeah.

Isobel: I would definitely recommend it. But I must put out a disclaimer to say please exercise caution. It is very addictive.

Nick: OK. Well… Well, thank you so much for all for all of your time, Isobel. It's been an absolute pleasure. And yeah. Please do check out The Ramp of Approval and Laydown PR. They're both awesome. Hopefully you’ll discover some great new artists…. and some really entertaining videos. Thanks so much, Isobel! 

Isobel: Thanks Nick!

Isaac: [Starts outro]

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